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 Post subject: does Eclipse really better than TI3?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:06 pm 
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At first, I was in the opinion that TI3 was an unplayable kinda game. It's a game that's so massive, so long to play, and so difficult to learn that I'd probably better off buying Eclipse.

Oh how wrong I was...

After playing both games, I firmly believe, aside of all the recent praise and hype for Eclipse, I'm in the opinion that Twilight Imperium 3 is still the far superior game.


Let's take a look at the components:

TI3:
Image
Eclipse:
Image

TI3 may seem like the more fiddly game. But it's not. TI3 is like your desk. From the outside, it look like a big pile of mess, but once you've played the game, everything just makes sense. there's actually not a lot of stuff for you to look out for.

Eclipse is very-very-very fiddly. But the design hides it superbly, there are three very important aspect that you have to look out for: Your player's mat, the home of a bunch of cubes and discs representing the tech, ships, finance and resources of your empire; the hex map, for obvious reason; and the available tech advance. It may not look like much, but the sheer number of components involved in those three aspect can easily makes you forget about the people you're playing game with. It's just a lot.

Do you wanna know how much is a lot? kick the table. Don't kick it too hard, just a little, until the table move. You'll cry afterwards.

Component quality wise, TI3 is clearly the winner. It's not about the quality of graphic, the card material and stuff, just take a single look at the ship miniature of Eclipse. Look at how poorly design the sculpt are, look at how very off-scale the size are compared to the hex map. I didn't really mind it before, but those oversized ships is really annoying when you're trying to form a massive fleet. Not to mention all those cubes and discs in the hex map.. there's really no space for miniatures with that size.

mechanic and rulebook
Both games have a very complicated gameplay and both games have a very complicated rulebook. The first time I read Eclipse's rulebook, I understand nothing. It might be that I'm exceptionally stupid, but it took me learning from an experienced player (not exactly experienced, but more like he played the game before) to understand how the moving cubes and discs works.

I have an easier time learning TI3, but the amount of mistakes I made in the first game were staggering. Either I'm really stupid or the rulebook failed to do its job explaining the game. I think it's both. Only after I learn through the walkthrough website that I finally understand how to properly play through a round.

but then.. there were some action cards that very difficult to resolve without lawyering for the first time. Had ask around the web.

Accessibility
Eclipse is a game for nice people who want to play 4x with their nice friends. Alliance is very lucrative in the game. Betrayal, not so much. When you break an alliance you get to enjoy the -4 VP, which, in my opinion, is one of the most stupid mechanic I've ever known in any game of any form.

TI3 is for the hardened group who can take abuse and betrayal like a man. People who won't get hurt for a little nastiness. No agreement in the game is legally binding. Everything run in the platform of gentleman's agreement. People will screw you for the sake of screwing. People will betray you after you invest a lot of hours building trust between each other... or maybe right away. But then, you can team up and faithful to each other till the end. Seen it happened before (until the end of on e of their empire). Now that's table politics.


Experience is an abstract thing. Aside of both games having a very similar theme, both games plays and feels very differently.

When I play TI3, I feel like I'm the emperor, the leader, the warlord. I plan how will I run my empire, I plan where my fleet is going. I plan who to fight and who to betray. All for the greatness of my faction. It's a very rich experience and very exciting.

In Eclipse, I feel like I'm the emperor's most trusted accountant. What I do every turn is shift discs and cobes here and there across the player's mat and the hex map. I need to worry about what to purchase and when is the good time to do it. In every turn I also have to worry about going bankrupt in the next round. Do I have the finance and resource to sustain this.

I don't know about you, as much as I like having an in depth economy aspect in my 4x game, I don't like it being the main point of the gameplay. I want to be the emperor, I may have to worry about resource and finance, but surely, I must have others that can do it for me. So just tell me what I can and can't buy, instead of accidentally running my econonmy to the ground for taking one too many turn (this actually happened to a newbie in one of my gaming session despite the more experienced ones reminding him the consequences of those little discs)


Now, the bane of TI3, the playing time. It takes a very long time to finish, yes. But, I'd rather having a blast playing this for 8-10 hours rather than getting bored shifting cubes and discs for 4-6 hours.

Now discuss!


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 Post subject: Re: does Eclipse really better than TI3?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:31 am 
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Not intend to argue but my experience was the other way around. I had difficult time understanding TI3 rulebook but not with Eclipse. Eclipse's rulebook is simple and streamlined. I played my first game with mostly correct rules based on the rulebook (just some minor understanding took place). If you called yourself stupid, then I am also stupid, in different way! :D

But, to discuss this matter, I would say, both games have pros and cons and though they have the same theme and genre, do not mean they can be compared head to head. They're different in the game play experience. One is AT, another one is Euro. TI3 focuses on the compelling story and background (same with REX) with the combination of strong player interaction. As a matter of fact, the interaction between players is somewhat crucial in this game.

On the other hand, Eclipse is more Euroish. It has interaction but not as many as and as engaging as TI3.
I honestly cannot compare the two, which I once did but failed. They're completely have different game experience.
I'd give both games 9.5 ratings and both are my favorite games.

In conclusion to my argument, TI3 is an awesome game! Which I want to play when I had the chance. :malu:

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 Post subject: Re: does Eclipse really better than TI3?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:37 pm 
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they're comparable to some extend. that's why i didn't delve further into the mechanics. it's just that from a 4X standpoint, Eclipse kinda missed the whole 4X thing since it encourage turtling and playing nice with your friends. But it still a superbly designed game. I really like the exploration mechanic and some other stuff. It's just that I wasn't expecting to be the emperor's accountant.

In my opinion, I personally think that Eclipse is not a hybrid. It's definitely a eurogame masquerading as a 4X euro-ameritrash hybrid.


edit: join us if you want to play TI3. we're in no way an experienced board gamers, but we're all seasoned gamers who can endure longer gaming session.


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 Post subject: Re: does Eclipse really better than TI3?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:16 am 
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yontory wrote:
In my opinion, I personally think that Eclipse is not a hybrid. It's definitely a eurogame masquerading as a 4X euro-ameritrash hybrid.


Agreed.

Well, turtling in some point might get you left behind. Biasanya last round akan mencapai klimaks karena there is no hex left to explore and players are pushed to attack others.

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 Post subject: Re: does Eclipse really better than TI3?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:39 pm 
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hmm, buat gw eurogamer, perbandingan ini ngga cocok sih... kaya bandingin duren sama apel... jd percuma gw comment ngga bakal ada titik temu`nya jg... gw tipe player yg doyan kompetisi, jd thematic games ngga terlalu gw peduliin... yg penting mekanik bagus dan balance...

cuma klarifikasi aja:
- untuk ngajarin orang maen, eclipse ini jauh lebih gampang drpd gw harus ngajarin terra mystica / agricola... krn semua`nya logical dan urutan`nya jelas... nyaris ngga ada text juga, jd sepanjang permainan ngga banyak orang nanya2...
- playtime`nya gw ber5 sekitar 2.5jam selesai koq... 30mins per player menurut designer`nya akurat setelah game ke3... 3 game pertama sekitar 45-60mins per player...

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 Post subject: Re: does Eclipse really better than TI3?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:54 pm 
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deadwood wrote:
hmm, buat gw eurogamer, perbandingan ini ngga cocok sih... kaya bandingin duren sama apel... jd percuma gw comment ngga bakal ada titik temu`nya jg... gw tipe player yg doyan kompetisi, jd thematic games ngga terlalu gw peduliin... yg penting mekanik bagus dan balance...

cuma klarifikasi aja:
- untuk ngajarin orang maen, eclipse ini jauh lebih gampang drpd gw harus ngajarin terra mystica / agricola... krn semua`nya logical dan urutan`nya jelas... nyaris ngga ada text juga, jd sepanjang permainan ngga banyak orang nanya2...
- playtime`nya gw ber5 sekitar 2.5jam selesai koq... 30mins per player menurut designer`nya akurat setelah game ke3... 3 game pertama sekitar 45-60mins per player...


Kudos to this. Cannot be compared head to head.
And yes, the Touko and Sampo really did a great job with the game's iconography. They're very effective and efficient!
It's one of the best iconography usages in a game. Hmmm.. speak of the devil, my mind is wondering what other games that have the same feat? 7 Wonders is another... (put on a thinking cap) :mikir:

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 Post subject: Re: does Eclipse really better than TI3?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:48 pm 
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Quote:
hmm, buat gw eurogamer, perbandingan ini ngga cocok sih... kaya bandingin duren sama apel... jd percuma gw comment ngga bakal ada titik temu`nya jg... gw tipe player yg doyan kompetisi, jd thematic games ngga terlalu gw peduliin... yg penting mekanik bagus dan balance...

Both are still fruit, are they not?

They're comparable, to some extend.

Anyway, I generally agree with the majority of people that Eclipse is a superbly designed game and I wouldn't refuse an invitation to play. BUT...

If the group want to play some 4X game (and have the time), I would definitely pick TI3, never Eclipse.


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 Post subject: Re: does Eclipse really better than TI3?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:41 am 
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Iya lah, loe bandingin eclipse ama le boomb jg sama2 buah, secara masi sama2 terdaftar di bgg...
Makanya gw bilang ga bakal comment buat pendapat loe, krn ga bakal nyambung, gw bisa kasi eclipse 10, tp gw ga bakal pernah berniat untuk maen ti3 (dan semua game AT lainnya).. Mungkin yg cocok adu argumen sama loe itu dr kalangan penggemar 4x atau scifi atau apalah... Jd personal preference loe kaga gw urusin sm sekali..

Dr awal gw cuma klarifikasi masalah explanation and playing time doang... Kalo loe merasa susah jelasin or lama maennya, itu cmn faktor jam terbang..

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 Post subject: Re: does Eclipse really better than TI3?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Quote:
Mungkin yg cocok adu argumen sama loe itu dr kalangan penggemar 4x atau scifi atau apalah

:)

Setuju. Eclipse emang jadi cepet kalo uda experienced. Kecuali grupnya sering ngobrol dan easily distracted/takes little break :P


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 Post subject: Re: does Eclipse really better than TI3?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:24 am 
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yontory wrote:
Quote:
Mungkin yg cocok adu argumen sama loe itu dr kalangan penggemar 4x atau scifi atau apalah

:)

Setuju. Eclipse emang jadi cepet kalo uda experienced. Kecuali grupnya sering ngobrol dan easily distracted/takes little break :P

This...
Same thing goes for TI3 and most heavy weight games. :)

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