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 Post subject: Re: Searching for the solution
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:25 am 
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dniel wrote:
di trajan, semua turn ditentukan oleh byknya action marker yang dimainkan oleh setiap pemain. karena mekanik yang dipake adalah mancala, jadi susah untuk bikin semua turn semua pemain itu equal dan gw merasa i can live with it even gw bukan 1st player
just my 2cent


Like this statement. So true, the brilliant mechanic of the mancala in trajan in some way (based on yongkie's opinion) could be a double side sword. But, the other side is pretty much blunt, unlike the main side! :punk:

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for the solution
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:30 am 
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dniel wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
imho, 1st player di round 1 itu harusnya ga mungkin di blok ama orang laen sih, jadi 1st player malah tinggal liat, tile yang dia perluin (misalnya tile vote 5) ada dimana, apakah di forum (tinggal ambil), apakah di military, tinggal move military duluan, orang laen cuma bisa ngikut.. nah, ini kan lagi bahas salah satu advantage dari 1st player.

masa sehh begitu aj dianggap sebagai advantage? padahal byk spot2 lain yang bisa dimanfaatkan oleh pemain lain :oops:


saat u ada pilihan untuk dapetin sesuatu yang kemungkinan orang laen mau, tapi mereka ga bisa dapet karena u jalan duluan, menurut gw itu uda namanya advantage, biarpun ga bakal sering sering terjadi

dniel wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
advantage lainnya yang gw sebutin tadi di awal, jumlah turn yang tidak sama, bagi 1st player, on the worst case, tiap player jumlah turnnya sama, the best casenya adalah, dia mendapatkan jumlah turn extra 1 dari tiap player laennya, dimana 1 turn itu kalau ada combonya, bisa jadi 2-3 action kan?
kalau dari sisi last player, on the worst case ya dia dapet turn kurang satu dari tiap player laennya, best case buat dia adalah, dia bisa mendapat jumlah turn yang sama dengan player laen

jadi menurut gw, last player itu uda ada handicapnya, apa sih keuntungan jadi last player? nothing (menurut gw loh ya, secara lu jalan terakhir, tile tile bagus di round 1 uda di ambil ama orang laen)

ini lagi, kl jumlah turn tiap round itu sama gw yakin s feld ga mungkin ga ngasih advantage buat pemain setelah 1st player
bisa diliat dr Castle of Burgundy, di mana ada "benefit" buat pemain setelah 1st player
di trajan, semua turn ditentukan oleh byknya action marker yang dimainkan oleh setiap pemain. karena mekanik yang dipake adalah mancala, jadi susah untuk bikin semua turn semua pemain itu equal dan gw merasa i can live with it even gw bukan 1st player
just my 2cent


ini bukan bahas jumlah turn tiap round lho, karena jumlah tiap round itu ga mungkin sama, tapi ini ngomongin jumlah turn untuk 1 game.
sekarang gini, turn start di player A, dan saat end game, endnya di player A juga? player A dapet turn lebih banyak dari player B, C, D, agree?

"benefit" di Castle of Burgundy itu gimana ya? gw rada lupa sih player 2, 3, 4 itu "benefitnya" apa, maennya uda lama :oops:
nah, trus "benefit" di Trajan itu contohnya apa?


vardamir wrote:
dniel wrote:
di trajan, semua turn ditentukan oleh byknya action marker yang dimainkan oleh setiap pemain. karena mekanik yang dipake adalah mancala, jadi susah untuk bikin semua turn semua pemain itu equal dan gw merasa i can live with it even gw bukan 1st player
just my 2cent


Like this statement. So true, the brilliant mechanic of the mancala in trajan in some way (based on yongkie's opinion) could be a double side sword. But, the other side is pretty much blunt, unlike the main side! :punk:


don't get me wrong, gw suka game ini, baru maen sekali, ada kepikiran pengen beli juga, but I won't blindly defend it kalo menurut gw ada something wrong with it, and I think you didn't even get my point, gw ga mempermasalahin mechanic di mancalanya kog, gw suka mancalanya, dan mancala itu ga ada hubungannya dengan extra turn yang gw maksud itu

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for the solution
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:42 am 
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yong, tapi extra turn yang terjadi itu masih bersifat kemungkinan loh, karena kan masing-masing player akan mencoba mengejar action yang diinginkan.. dan action yang diinginkan itu bisa aja menambah gerakan time track hanya sedikit (bisa juga banyak sih), jadi in the end untuk menentukan 4 cycle itu berakhir dimana masih sulit ditentukan.. :D

kalo pemain selain 1st player-nya ga mau agar 1st player dapet extra action, bisa aja player lain ambil cube yang udah banyak2 supaya cepet2 1 cycle dan belum tentu jumlah action 1st player lebih banyak.. hehehe

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for the solution
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:45 am 
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Menurut gw, trajan itu salah satu faktornya juga manipulasi time tracknya.. Waktu gw maen bertiga sama andi, gita, banyak tuh yang ngincer action2 tertentu.. Walhasil ada satu spot yang ada 8 kubus. Itu udha kayak time travel ke turn berikutnya. Jadinya, tiap age itu, tiap player belum tentu dapet jumlah action yang sama. Sampe end game pun juga, kalo trigger game end di player 2, maka player 3 kurang 1 action.

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for the solution
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:56 am 
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thinkbeyond wrote:
yong, tapi extra turn yang terjadi itu masih bersifat kemungkinan loh, karena kan masing-masing player akan mencoba mengejar action yang diinginkan.. dan action yang diinginkan itu bisa aja menambah gerakan time track hanya sedikit (bisa juga banyak sih), jadi in the end untuk menentukan 4 cycle itu berakhir dimana masih sulit ditentukan.. :D

kalo pemain selain 1st player-nya ga mau agar 1st player dapet extra action, bisa aja player lain ambil cube yang udah banyak2 supaya cepet2 1 cycle dan belum tentu jumlah action 1st player lebih banyak.. hehehe


yap, itu dia, 1st player ga ngapa ngapain aja, uda pasti minimal jumlah turnnya sama dengan 2nd, 3rd, 4th player kan? sementara yang laen, perlu sedikit extra untuk mencegah 1st player dapet extra turn, dan yang paling rugi ya tentu saja 4th player, game end di 1st player, 4th player rugi, end di 2nd player, 4th player rugi, end di 3rd player, 4th player rugi juga :lol:

dan karena game end di mana masih sulit ditentukan, maka dipake percentage aja, end di 1st player 25%, end di 2nd player 25%, end di 3rd player 25%, end di 4th player 25%, artinya 75% of the game, 1st player dapet extra turn dari last player.
75% of the game, last player rugi 1 turn

joehn wrote:
Menurut gw, trajan itu salah satu faktornya juga manipulasi time tracknya.. Waktu gw maen bertiga sama andi, gita, banyak tuh yang ngincer action2 tertentu.. Walhasil ada satu spot yang ada 8 kubus. Itu udha kayak time travel ke turn berikutnya. Jadinya, tiap age itu, tiap player belum tentu dapet jumlah action yang sama. Sampe end game pun juga, kalo trigger game end di player 2, maka player 3 kurang 1 action.


tiap age pastinya blum tentu dapet action yang sama, dan I like that part, artinya perlu strategi dan perhitungan.
mirip dengan saat maen Le Havre, tiap round, turn tiap tiap player ga pasti sama, tapi di Le Havre, overall, semua player dapet jumlah turn yang sama, sedangkan di Trajan nga.

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for the solution
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:01 am 
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tapi yg perlu diingat, jumlah action dalam game belum tentu menentukan pemain itu yang menang.. :D gue sering dapet action lebih, tapi ujung2 yang bisa dilakukan hanya action yang bukan gue butuhkan.. misalkan gue incer action construction selama permainan, tapi dapet action lebihnya action kapal yang buat gue ga berfungsi apa2 :lol:

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Last edited by thinkbeyond on Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for the solution
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:05 am 
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thinkbeyond wrote:
tapi yg perlu diingat, jumlah action dalam game belum tentu menentukan pemain itu yang menang.. :D gue sering dapet action lebih, tapi ujung2 yang bisa dilakukan hanya action yang bukan gue butuhkan.. misalkan gue ga incer action construction selama permainan, tapi dapet action lebihnya action kapal yang buat gue ga berfungsi apa2 :lol:


yah, setuju sih kalo ama ini, makanya gw sebutnya minor complaint :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for the solution
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:12 am 
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well, kalo compare sama le havre, agak susah sih.. karena udah pre-determined tiap turn siapa yang jumlah actionnya lebih dikit.

Tapi emang betul sih, secara logika, more action means more VP.. Karena tiap action pasti menghasilkan VP (of some sort).. So, first player di trajan chance dapet VP lebih banyak itu PASTI.. hahaha

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for the solution
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:48 am 
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Omong2 tentang 1st player advantage, di Eclipse juga ada loh. Nih di salah satu strategy article di eclipse:

Quote:
Round 1:
The first turn of Eclipse should be one of two things, researching improved hull, or cursing the players before you in turn order for doing so. If improved hull is there, take it. End of story. It's too important to pass up regardless of the rest of your strategy. You can certainly win without it, but its so flexible and useful that all strategy paths can make use of it.


And the more I play Eclipse, the more I'm inclined to agree.

Tentu saja, seperti Brass, ini ngga menjamin kemenangan, tapi it's too good to pass up sehingga 1st player kelihatan very stupid (or cocky) kalo ngga ngelakuin itu.

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 Post subject: Re: Searching for the solution
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:56 am 
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Darkmot wrote:
Omong2 tentang 1st player advantage, di Eclipse juga ada loh. Nih di salah satu strategy article di eclipse:

Quote:
Round 1:
The first turn of Eclipse should be one of two things, researching improved hull, or cursing the players before you in turn order for doing so. If improved hull is there, take it. End of story. It's too important to pass up regardless of the rest of your strategy. You can certainly win without it, but its so flexible and useful that all strategy paths can make use of it.


And the more I play Eclipse, the more I'm inclined to agree.

Tentu saja, seperti Brass, ini ngga menjamin kemenangan, tapi it's too good to pass up sehingga 1st player kelihatan very stupid (or cocky) kalo ngga ngelakuin itu.


kalau ada kasus begitu, harusnya pake sistem bidding, siapa mau di turn order pertama :lol:

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